[Music] [Narelle] Hi and welcome to another episode, episode 16 of the Digital Access Show. Today's guest has been running businesses for many years. He is the digital marketing guru and currently runs a company called SmashNGo which is digital marketing and web development. Nik Cree, thank you very much for coming on. [Nik] Absolute pleasure being here Narelle. Thanks for having me on. And looking forward talking about this topic today. I think it's really important. [Narelle] I think so too. Nik, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? What is your background other than just the digital marketing and web development background? [Nik] Well I'm probably one of the very few people that you know, that was born on Norfolk Island. So people don't know where that is. It's a little tiny island five miles by three. I can't remember the kilometres of it but I just remember five miles was of it. Basically two volcanoes fused together sitting in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and population of 1500. That was where I was born and and bought up. I've been in business since the, really sort of, early to mid-90s. And my journey from business has really been doing some of the things that are a little bit contrary. And so, you know, I've never been one to follow the rules fully. I've always, I was accused when I was younger, like a kid, of asking too many questions that started with why. And I was also often told off for having the last word. But really that's because I've been innately curious and that was really how I fell into the digital world as well too, is through curiosity. And it was looking at how can I do things in a way that is easier, quicker and reaches more people. And provides, you know, some value to so many more people than you know traditional business ever could. So I had a traditional business that, you know. that did that. I took it from zero to being an award winner over the period of time that I had, which was 10 years Exited that and then I got into the digital marketing business as a, you know, professional and that was where I went with businesses which is what I do today. Helping them with pretty much all things digital. You know, how they can take their business, utilize online assets to really help them to, you know, make more money and say, you know, have more time for themselves and create a business that they, that serves them rather than them serving their business. [Narelle] Yeah and that's exactly why I wanted you on today. Because one of the things that I get very interested in and I see it as a person with disability. And I look at it, the other side of it from talking with friends that have businesses and things, is what are the challenges and barriers that business have in implementing digital accessibility. You get someone like myself goes to that cafe and says, "Why don't they have the menu online. It'll be so simple.". But we, as the people with disability, have to take a step back. I really think about Well, why doesn't the business have the menu online? Or why can't I read the bill? Or why can't I do whatever? What, you know, business have a lot of challenges today? [Nik] Well, I think, first of all , it is, I would have to say lack of awareness. So, you know, people that are, you know, enabled and don't recognise they have any sort of disability or just don't even think about people with disabilities, you know, the struggles that they go through or things that they just take for granted. So, I really think that first thing is, is that awareness. The second thing is, is that there are levels of disability as well, too. And it was really a conversation that I had with you, a year or so back where I discovered that I had a disability. [Narelle] It was funny. I wish I'd seen your face. [Nik] But it was quite right. I wear glasses? It's like, [Narelle] And you left your glasses at home. [Nik] I'd left it at home. And so, here am I struggling to see. Reading and holding things at arm's length to read things. And so, you know, that was one of those things that altered my perspective. So, if someone was, you know, had vision that was quite a lot more impaired than me, how would they actually cope with, you know, being in this meeting and reading the material. Even the simple stuff like you said, you know, the menus and that type of thing there. And so, that's an awareness side of things. And I think, so with that, once they've got the awareness and they're, a then it comes down to a couple of things. One is do I care. So, there's that, there's that care effect. Most of my clients, you know, they don't have a disability. So, I'm not really going to cater to people that have got disability. And they're not saying it in a nasty way. It's just like, well, you know, I don't need to for business, I've got enough coming in. [Narelle] That's what they will say why or the other one you get is, well, I don't deal with people with disability. But I think that is where the business itself needs to take a step back and think, well, [Nik] Why is it? [Narelle] Why? [Nik] Yeah. [Narelle] Yep. [Nik] Absolutely, absolutely. And I think, I want to come back to that and touch on that because I think the last thing is cost. So, people perceive that it's going to be costly to implement systems there that are available for everybody and are inclusive. But that's not necessarily the case. There are some simple steps they can take which don't cost a lot of money, but, you know, simple to do. And it will help everybody, not, you know, just a specific group of people. It will actually help everyone, including themselves. [Narelle] Yeah, I agree with that. And I do think you've hit the nail on the head with those three reasons. The first, they don't know what they don't know. The second is, well, they don't deal with people with disability anyway, so why should they go and do it? And spending the money. In the economy that we've got today and the uncertainty of our economy in some ways. It is a big ask, isn't it? [Nik] Oh, yes. Yes, I mean, I think, you know, we're not really coming into times that we're going to get any easier at the moment. And you just have to have a look at it out there with things like prices, you know. How much are you paying for things, just simple stuff like groceries and, you know, going out. How much more is that costing you, as opposed to even, you know, 24 months, a 12, 24 months ago. So those costs are going up. Who wears the cost for that? Well, usually in business, it is the business owner that wears the cost. Because they're saying things like, well, you know, I can't really put up my prices to, you know, because people are not going to pay it. Which is not quite true. That's just their assumption. But, you know, they've got that mindset. So they suck it up, they reduce profits. Even if it comes out of their pocket and they're not taking home a wage, or you know, income themselves. You know, so then to then layer in top saying, well, you know, if we're going to do some things that are going to help with accessibility, I just don't have the money to do it or the budget to do it. So, so it's a bit of thinking that needs to go in behind there. Probably a bit of mindset change, I think too. [Narelle] It is mindset, to an extent. And I also think it's mindset on the part of the person with disability, Nik. Because the person with disability, you know, there's that old first person, second person, third person or his truth, her truth and the truth. You know, we all grew up with that. And if the person with disability, maybe has to take a step back and think, coffee shop, you know, they probably are struggling. As you said, you know, some coffee shops, I mean, the cost of coffee, the cost of petrol, everything else, the cost are really risen. But would a person be willing to spend $10 on a skinny latte? Which would, might cover the cost. And, you know, and that doesn't include your insurances and rent and all the myriad costs that you've got to have to run a coffee shop. I think a disservice is done to the business when the person with disability goes in stamping their feet and getting angry. Because that also puts the business off. [Nik] Yep. And I think if, you know, that sort of things happening. There's a level of compassion and understanding that is helpful for both sides of that equation to have or both perspectives to have. And I generally come from it, you know, if there's something that I've been unaware of. So, you know, someone says, look, I, I'm having difficulty reading this here or having difficulty getting into your premises. I come from the point of view of using the phrase, oh, that's interesting. Can you tell me more about that? And what challenges do you face? How would you see, what would make it easier for you? So, so it's not, it's not that they're going to implement all those things, but now they've got some information that they're now aware of it. And then can start to think, okay, what can I do? So, you might not be able to do everything. Well, that's what can I do. And that, and that's probably for both perspectives too. Sort of thinking, you know, what can I do to make it easier for you and what can I do to make it easier for you? [Narelle] I agree, actually. I really think both sides have to take that deep breath, whatever you want to call it. Because it doesn't help anyone. It doesn't help us as a community to what, what can be done to fix it. Because it is going to be a long-term thing. It's not short term. What do you think can be done? [Nik] Well, there's a number of things, really. The first thing is that there are already in the digital arena. There are already solutions that are available off the shelf in software packages already, that are already accessible. So, investigating that and when you're making decisions about the digital world about, you know, your software, your website, you know, your CRM, your services. Just asking the question or finding out what's been already built in that helps with accessibility. And that's probably the first and that's going to cost you no more. So, it might help you, so for instance, if it's a website, it may help you select a web platform that, you know, goes, it might not, may not 100% there, but it might get there, 60, 70, 80% there. The cost you no extra, but you've taken that step towards making it accessible. The other thing I think too, is really thinking about your business model. So, as, so I come from the perspective of business owner, being a business, because that's who I work with. Thinking about, well, where do I make my money in business? You know, and having a look at your customer base and sort of thinking, well, where is most of my revenue come from? Who are the customers that are the ones that are the least? They complain the least. They spend the most. They're easier to work with and they're enjoyable. And they provide me with 80% of my revenue. And generally find that's about 20% of your customers. So, so, so, so, generally you can afford to cater to that set of customers. And, and not cater too much to the other set. And, you know, they can go somewhere else. Like cater that set of customers. Now, I know that you're probably thinking, well, actually, what if, as a person with a disability, I'm in that other segment there, that they're not catering to? I want to spin that around and think about, well, how about if, if you think about people that have got the, the most paid in terms of getting service. And, you know, what they want, you know, from businesses. Generally, generally sort of people with some disabilities like that or something, if they go to some, and I might be wrong, but, you know, I'm sort of, they go to somewhere that is easy. It's accessible. It's like, you know, they've got aids there to really help them to buy things. Price doesn't really become an issue. The experience is, is really what's here. So, if you talk about a cafe and, you know, let's say, cafes are selling their coffees at $8 a pop. Actually, it's getting expensive. I've seen them over $10 at the moment. But, but then it's more than likely that they're not going to go there once. This is going to be the regular that they keep coming back to time and time and time and time again. And not only that, this is the place that they're going to bring their friends to as well and the friends are going to bring them because it's an easy experience and it's a, it's a positive and it's a good experience. And the hardest part of business is acquiring your customers. So, so if you give an experience, it's a good experience, then you don't actually have to go and acquire more customers because you've got customers that keep on coming back again and again. And are spending their money with you again and again again. So, I would think about, well, if there's a market of people there, for instance, and I'll use the vision impairment because that's the one that I'm sort of on the edge of. So, so if you've got things that really help vision impaired and think of it, and there could be quite simple things. If someone just coming to read the menu to you. Or it could be, you know, digital technology as well. But if you make it as easy as possible and then you're going to have those customers keeping coming back again and again and again. And I think that there could be a niche for your business as well too. Or a sub niche in your business. And it's easy to serve a small group of people that have similar demographics and interests, whatever, than it is trying to serve everybody. [Narelle] Yep, I think you've got it in one there, Nik, because I know for myself, even my local IGA. It's so good because, I mean, an IGA you'd think they couldn't really do anything. But it's what they do do. So if I want to go, like, I know where the bananas are. My guide dog knows where the bananas are. And I know next to the banana is the avocado. Then there's the apple. And it doesn't change. Or I'll say to my guide dog, I want milk. And he will take me straight to the milk area. Or they will change something. And I'll go in and it'll be, hey Narelle. Wait on. We've changed the rice. We've had to do it. We are going to teach you. And they will have already worked it out. This is how to teach Narelle where the rice is. So I can still be independent. Now that's really good service. The, I keep going back. And I will keep going back. Because I know my needs are met. And it's just such an easy way to do it, isn't it? [Nik] And how much does it cost them to do that? [Narelle] Nothing. [Nik] Nothing. So [Narelle] That's it. [Nik] So the perception of cost, when you start to think about it. It doesn't necessarily have to cost a lot. [Narelle] There is a few things, obviously, that people can do that are really quick and easy to do. Like, on your images on social media, add an alternate text. [Nik] Yep. Well, here's the interesting thing about that. If people add that alternative text, it helps them in their business across the board anyway. Because that's one of the things that the search engine looks for to help with your search engine ranking. So if you put alt, alternative text on all of your images, it's going to help you with your SEO. or your search engine optimisation. [Narelle] That's it. That's it is precisely. And it's. But it's even things like captions. I mean, someone that's deaf said to me not long ago, AI captioning is like a really badly written letter. Would you accept a badly written letter? And I thought about it, oh my gosh, what a good analogy. No, I wouldn't. And, you know, it's those little things that can be done. As a web developer, I mean, it's even making sure your website can be accessed by keyboard only. Because, how many people have RSI or don't have the fine motor skills to manage a mouse. [Nik] And you know what, there's a lot of web developers out there that don't even think about the accessibility at all. And yet, as a web developer, it's not that difficult to incorporate some of those in it. So there are simple things like it's, it's quite trendy to in form fields, not to have the label on the forms. But if you don't have the label on the forms, than it means screen readers can't actually read what the label is. [Narelle] But what about a person that's OCD. And they forget what was meant to be in the form. [Nik] What was in there? Oh, that's me. Yeah. Start filling in the form field and it disappears. What was I filling? Was that my first name? My last name. But yet there are some things that you can do where you can still have no, where it has the appearance of having no labels on your form fields yet the screen readers can still read the labels. So, so, you know, and that, that's in most of it. But it's like having a mind for it and thinking about as a developer. How can you achieve that? Yeah. [Narelle] Or just sticking the label back on. [Nik] Yeah. That's simple. [Narelle] Simple as that. Nik, what are three take aways that you can provide. I think, for in the digital space, the first one I really think is awareness. Is thinking about, of your of your clients or people that come to visit your website or your web properties. How many of them have a disability? In thinking and just having that awareness of what's the experience going to be like for them if they come here. And am I losing out in potential business by not paying attention to accessibility. And even run some split tests. I mean, it's easy enough to run some split tests and you know just have, say, an accessible page. And, and they, you know, your standard page test and see what the results. So if you don't think it's going to make any difference. I say do a split test and then you'll really, you know, start to see the difference in it. And it'll be of a financial benefit. The second thing is content. These days we can produce content in so many different formats that there's no reason for it not to be accessible. So if I, when I'm talking with people about creating content, people traditionally think about content as been blog content or text based content. I start from video. So if you start from video, you can so,you know, we're using video right now to record this. This video, you can transcribe it. Now the transcription tools are a not quite there in terms of accuracy. But it gives you a start that you then you can tidy it up. Now you've got a text version of what you spoke about. You can also take out the audio out of this video and turn it into an audio only file. So that can become a podcast file that you can pop up to iTunes or even on your website or Spotify. You've got videos that you can create into a YouTube channel, onto social media. You've got text based content which you can post on your website. You can also put it on social media. And then you can cut that content up into various formats too. You can have very short form videos for the shorts. You can have short text for the, you know, for short posts. You can have short audio clips. So, and you know, doing all that, if you start with video you've got everything to start with. And it doesn't take too much to really cut it up and repurpose it into a range of different formats. Now the benefit of that, apart from being accessible for everybody, is that now it's really going to help you with your search engine optimization. Because you're going to be found in a number of different formats. It's going to help in terms of people who consume content in different ways. Like I'm a very much a visual person. So I like to, and a reader, so like I like to visually read something. I don't really like to watch videos. But I also like to listen to audio in the car. So, you know, people will consume, you know, content in various different formats. So it's not only going to help for accessibility. It's going to help your business in a whole lot of, you know, ways that you probably haven't even thought of yet. [Narelle] You've got it in one Nik. Thank you. Thanks for your time today Nik. I really appreciate that. And you can find Nik at, where can we contact you Nik? [Nik] Well I'll tell you what. The best way to find me is if you Google my name. N I K C R E E. I am at least in the first six pages of Google search. So that's the best way to find me. The website is SmashGo. smashgo.co. So and, that's got everything there as well. [Narelle] Great, thanks Nik. And that's the end of today's episode. So I hope you got some value out of it. So for people with disability, remember we do need to educate. Education's number one. And for businesses have a think about, what can you do to bring in more people. And if you like what we do, like, subscribe, share, review. Whatever you can do. Let's get the message out and we'll see you next time. [Music]