[music playing]

[Narelle] Hi.

Welcome to The
Digital Access Show,

where we talk all
things communication,

accessibility and usability.

Because after all,
that's what we always talk about.

All digital communication
has to be accessible.

Otherwise, you're
not communicating.

-[Narelle] It's not usable.
-[Lee-Anne] Yeah.

[Narelle] Today's guest I
met through another friend,

and I am so excited,
because I'm into fitness.

I'm not a runner.

I want to get back
into running, but,

you know, you get older,

things start to break
down a bit in life.

And she's come up with a
way for people with disability…

to keep exercising.

And this solution doesn't just
apply to people with disability.

It is for the elderly.

Here in Australia,

it's for those who've grown
out in the Bush that don't have…

access to physical
trainers or whatever,

and they might just like
to do a cardio session,

or meditate or whatever it is.

Please meet Lee-Anne Reuber
from Sekond Skin Society.

Lee-Anne, thank you.

[Lee-Anne] Narelle,
thank you for having me.

I'm so excited to be here.

[Narelle] Lee-Anne, can
you tell us a bit about yourself,

and why you're doing
what you're doing?

[Lee-Anne] Yes,
I love this question.

It's so important.

There's a few reasons why
I'm doing what I'm doing.

First and foremost,

I myself, over
the last few years,

have lost quite a
bit of my hearing,

and that's something that
is hereditary in my family.

I've also, over the last
few years, just noticed a…

pretty significant
difference in my vision.

So, especially from
the first part of the day,

so morning to evening,

my vision changes
pretty, pretty significantly.

And knowing that
as I continue to age,

I will have more,

you know, challenges or more…

things related to
hearing, vision, mobility.

There's all kinds
of different things

that I experience in my
own body as it changes,

and knowing whether it is,

you know, 20 years from now,

where I am at the point of…

labelling myself as
someone who has a disability.

Or…

whether tomorrow,

I am out and I have an accident.

I get injured,
I'm diagnosed with an illness.

We are all going to
come to have a personal…

reason to care
about accessibility.

And for me,

this is very much about
developing something

that matters today
for so many people,

and will matter
for me in the future,

regardless of, you know,

whether that's tomorrow
or 20 years from now.

I also have a personal
connection to disability

just because I started working…

in disability inclusion
when I was 13 years old.

And I understand now,

getting to look
back on that time,

how impactful it was for
me in early teenage years

to be around people
with disabilities.

I was going to high school,

and then I was going to
spend time with people

who had all kinds of different
lived experience than I did,

people who use wheelchairs,

people who had
developmental disabilities,

mental health challenges,

you know, lots of
intersectionalities there.

And that…

exposure for me gave
me such a beautiful gift,

where I got to just develop
relationships with other humans.

And that's missing in
our society right now.

There's a lot of…

there's an invisible divide…

where people with and
without disabilities are not…

spending as much time together,

or really very much
time at all together,

because many people are afraid.

Non-disabled people are
afraid of saying the wrong thing,

or offending someone
or doing the wrong thing.

You know, even though they
may have good intentions,

you know,
there's so many assumptions

that we as a society
carry about disability,

and so it creates
this invisible…

divide between…

disabled and
non-disabled people.

And recognising that I had
such an incredible experience,

where I just built relationships
with people with disabilities.

I understand that that
divide does not need to exist,

and so part of what
I'm doing is really…

wanting to create a space
where that divide doesn't exist,

and we are solely focused on the
things that we have in common,

like fitness or
yoga or meditation,

you know, in my
business, of course.

[Narelle] So what is it
exactly that you've created?

[Lee-Anne] So, we've just
recently launched a mobile app.

It is a fitness app
that's designed

to be accessible and inclusive.

And so my definition of that,

is it's accessible for people who
are using assistive technology.

So things like screen
readers, voice over,

those types of things,

to include people who use
that assistive technology

in our community.

It is integrating a lot of
different accessibility features

that you don't typically
see in a fitness app.

So, things like captions,

but the ability to adjust
the caption text size,

and the colour contrast as well,

so that you can
customise that experience.

The audio settings
can be customised.

So, you're able to adjust
the volume of the instructor,

separate from the
volume of the music,

so you can have a better user
experience that way as well.

And there's been a lot of just,

you know, thought and intention
into the actual tech development,

so that we can give users
the very best experience,

and have them have the control…

over what that
experience feels like.

And then, in addition
to those tech features,

we have an incredible
instructor community

that is 75 percent
made up of instructors,

who have lived
experience with disability.

So our instructors,

we have instructors
who are blind,

who are deaf,
who use wheelchairs,

who have autism,

who have ADHD,

and non-disabled instructors.

And we work together to
co-create different class options

that include classes taught
using, you know, full body,

so standing class options,

classes that are seated,

that don't include any
lower body in the classes,

classes that are seated but
do include some lower body.

Then classes that are taught with
American Sign Language as well.

And again, just thinking about,

you know, how can
we create a really,

beautifully broad and diverse
range of options for people

to really give better access,
and also representation,

you know, through…

through our
instructor community,

and through the way that
We're creating the content.

[Narelle] This is brilliant.

So, for people that aren't aware,
Lee-Anne lives in Canada.

[Lee-Anne] I do.

[Narelle] What's the legal
framework in Canada…

surrounding digital accessibility
that you're adhering to?

[Lee-Anne] It's the WCAG 2.2,

is where we're kind
of setting that standard.

So knowing, you know,

just to be
transparent, of course,

there's lots of different things
that we're still working on,

and we're really helping…

We're really working on
the accessibility features,

and really the user
experience, specifically,

using member feedback.

So, we're having a lot of
sessions with members

to understand what that
experience feels like for them.

And how we can not just
look to meet guidelines,

but you touched
on it in the intro,

but really thinking about
the user experience,

and how can we make this
a really pleasant experience

for people to navigate.

Quickly find what
they're looking for,

feel really supported
in the different options,

and be able to move
their bodies and, you know,

work on their physical and
mental health using our app.

[Narelle] Yeah. That's awesome.

Obviously, here in Australia,
it's exactly the same standard,

because WCAG
is a global standard.

It equally applies anywhere,

so what you're
talking about is an app

that can be used worldwide.

[Lee-Anne] Yeah. Absolutely.

[Narelle] Yeah. It's awesome.

So what type of,

when you're talking captions,

when you're talking
audio description,

how hard has it been
to caption the videos?

Cause that's a lot of work.

I know how much
time it does take

to ensure captioning is correct.

[Lee-Anne] Yep.

And that's one of the
things that we're working on.

So, we have captions that
are included in the classes,

and actually, the default setting
is that captions are always on.

Of course, you can
choose to turn them off,

but we have gone through
and edited the SRT files,

so that we can make sure
those captions are accurate.

Of course, we're still right now
doing a lot of things manually,

so it is very hard.

We're a small team, you know,

working to create a really
incredible experience,

and do as much as we can

to make that experience
impactful for people.

So the time and
attention to detail,

through all of these
different processes,

it's challenging.

It's challenging, you know,
for the entire team to work

to make as few
mistakes as possible.

[Narelle] Yeah.

What is the feedback
you're getting?

So, you've been talking
about a lot of feedback,

but, and I know from
what we've discussed

you're getting great feedback.

But what is the
type of feedback,

more specifically, for the
people that are using it?

Are they feeling
better health wise?

Are they feeling good mentally?

-[Narelle] Emotionally?
-[Lee-Anne] Yeah. Yeah.

All of it.

We've heard all
of that feedback,

all those things that you just
mentioned, which is incredible.

And I think one of the
things that is an immediate…

piece of feedback
that we're getting,

is really that emotional impact.

It is because people
are downloading the app,

if they're using
assistive technology.

I had someone over the
weekend send me a message…

right after she had
downloaded the app,

and she was just on the very
first login screen, and she said,

I'm aware that you have an
image on your login screen,

and it was described.

And I just want to tell you

that I don't typically
have that experience,

that the first thing that I come
to in this type of a product,

you know, the login screen
had that image description.

And of course we
we've got that throughout.

The feedback, that emotional
impact is really about,

that the fact that we have
poured into the accessibility

of the product itself.

It's also because of
the representation.

People feel such a
sense of community

when they see themselves,

or are aware that
there are instructors

that are just like them,

that are teaching,

especially in a place that
has been so exclusionary…

of people with disabilities
for decades, right?

So for us, it's not just
about creating access.

It's also about empowering
people with disabilities

to lead in the fitness
and yoga spaces.

And I think, you know, one of,

the overarching theme of the
feedback we've received thus far,

is really about the concept,

the idea of people with different
needs being able to exercise,

together,

in the way that we've
set things up with our tech,

the concept there
is really powerful.

So, that's kind of
been first and foremost.

You and I have
spoken about this,

but we have certainly
gained a lot of interest

from people who are
blind or have low vision.

A lot of people have shared
really great feedback just about,

you know, not having had
an a positive experience…

with a fitness app before.

You know, considering
the assistive technology

that they're using
to navigate things.

And then, you know, we
didn't touch on this, like,

but I should mention
that in our classes,

we pay attention,

and have an enhanced
level of instruction

that our teachers are providing,

so that if you are not
following along with the video,

and you're following the
instruction just with the audio,

that you feel confident
in being able to,

you know,
do the different exercises,

or do the different yoga poses,

and do them confidently
without feeling confused or lost,

or like you're unsure of
what's being asked of you.

So that, again, is some of
the feedback that we're getting,

is that that's not typical,

the amount of
intention and detail

that's gone into how
those classes are taught,

again, creates that
emotional impact.

And then, of course,
as people are using it,

they are sharing that it's
impacting them physically.

They're feeling really great
about being able to have,

you know, a really nice
habit of exercise or meditation,

or whatever it is that
they're looking to access.

But it seems to be positively
impacting them physically,

and mentally,
as well as emotionally.

[Narelle] And that's wonderful.

I know from personal experience,
I used to do weights.

I was never into being a
big weight lifter or anything.

It was just for fitness.

And, you know, keeping
the muscle strength up,

and keeping the
body strength up,

because most
people don't realise,

just the amount
of balance issues…

people with severe
vision impairment have.

And it is dependent on your
core strength being very strong.

So, if you go to fall,
you can correct that.

And just even,
like, I got frustrated,

because I had to do it with
a, you know, personal trainer,

And they didn't sometimes get,

well, hang on here,
you can put me on a treadmill,

but I can't control
the treadmill,

because it's not
voice activated.

Or a bike.

Same problem.

Or, you know,
or when you're doing yoga.

You know, if you're in a class,

I actually can't see
what that person's doing,

even if I'm up the front.

-[Lee-Anne] Yeah.
-[Narelle] And they will say…

[Narelle] Cobra Pose or
whatever it is, right?

-[Lee-Anne] Yeah.
-[Narelle] And I actually…

might not be in
the correct pose.

And that's why I stopped
doing those things,

because it was frustrating,
and it was quite,

alienating, is probably
a good word, I think.

And it's the same
with, I think, a lot of…

sport, that…

unless you're doing
a particular sport

that's particularly designed
for the disability you've got,

such as wheelchair basketball,

or there's goal ball
for vision impaired,

which is actually
cool for, yeah.

It's actually quite
physical, that one.

I won't touch that
one with a barge pole.

Young ones can do that one.

But there's a lot of
sports that we can't do.

You know,
there is tennis, blind tennis.

But you've got to
go to a tennis court.

And if the tennis
courts not nearby,

and there aren't other
people to play against,

what do you do?

-[Lee-Anne] Yeah.
-[Narelle] So…

[Narelle] It's such a big issue.

What were the challenges,
when you were starting this off,

on the accessibility side?

What were the challenges
you really had to think about…

how to get around?

And how did you
find the answers?

[Lee-Anne] We are still
resolving challenges, right

We're still continuously
listening to more feedback

to understand where we
can create the most impact.

But you know, this
really started with an idea,

and then,

truly hundreds of
conversations with people

to get to understand what
their experiences with fitness

and yoga had been like.

And a lot of the same
stories came through,

similar to what you've just
shared about the alienation.

There's a lot of, you know,
people that were feeling…

embarrassed to go to in-person,

you know, recreation
or sports opportunities.

And so, it started with
a lot of conversations.

And when we moved into the
design and actual build phase,

we were including people
through that process,

so that we were able to
course correct quicker…

than having just, you know,
known what the idea was,

building it and then
take in feedback

to have to do a whole
lot more course correction.

We've had some incredible experts
that are part of our team,

who have extensive
experience in accessibility.

So, knowing that they were
part of the entire process,

really from the idea stage,

it really helped us
to design a system

to embed accessibility
into all of our practices.

So, we weren't going
through and building a product,

and then thinking about,

okay, what do we need to
do to make it accessible?

It was every sprint,

every time that we were
working on a very specific…

aspect of the build

accessibility was part of
that conversation throughout.

And so, we've really poured
into, you know, the experience,

and again,
understanding that…

we still want more people to
share what it feels like,

so that we can improve that
user experience even, even more.

It's really just been
about listening.

It's been about making sure
that we're including people…

throughout the entire
process and continuing to…

hold ourselves to a standard,

and truly a decision and a
commitment to accessibility,

where we will never be done.

We will continuously be
looking at, okay, you know,

to improve the
experience in terms of…

the fitness aspect
or the yoga aspect.

We may add,
you know, additional features.

And every single
time that we go to build,

or continue to iterate
or evolve the product,

it will really be about,

you know, how do we do that to
make sure that it's accessible?

We won't put
something into place

just for the sake of having
something that might be fancy,

if it then becomes inaccessible.

[Narelle] Yeah, I love it.

Gotta ask, where did the
name came from, come from?

Sekond Skin Society.

Because I think I know,
but I better confirm this.

[Lee-Anne] It's,

I would probably refer
to it as a manifestation.

So, the business originally
started as a yoga studio.

I had my own brick
and mortar yoga space.

And when I was thinking about…

what I wanted people to
experience when they were coming,

and practising with us,

it was very much this,

I want them to have
an inner transformation.

For me, that's what
yoga is about, and truly,

that's what movement
is about for me.

Yes, there are physical results
that we get to feel from that,

but movement for me is
such an internal practice.

And so, the idea of Sekond
Skin, was this, you know,

kind of the shedding of
the skin like the snake does,

where the old falls away,
and you start to really…

get to discover yourself
over and over and over again.

And so, I call it
a manifestation,

because when the
business decided,

okay, we're moving into
developing a mobile app,

we're going to really enhance
all of the different aspects,

related to accessibility and
inclusion through this app.

I started thinking
about that name, and,

and we had, at one point,
considered a re-brand,

but I felt like it was even
more impactful, that name,

because it was more
than our own inner…

transformation, personally,

which I still want people to
experience through movement.

It's also about the ability to…

think outside of your
own lived experience.

And so Sekond Skin for
me is very much about…

thinking outside of my own body,

and considering other
people and their bodies,

and really understanding,

learning from people
by learning about people.

And that is what this, you know,

kind of Second Skin
experience is like now.

[Narelle] Well, I had that wrong

because I've had a saying
that I heard all of my life.

"It fits like a second skin."

And to me, that's what
this mobile phone app does.

-[Lee-Anne] I love that!
-[Narelle] It's such a good fit.

[Narelle] It's such a good
fit for people with disability.

What is some advice
you would give to a person

that is looking to build
a mobile phone app,

for people with disability?

What advice do you give them?

[Lee-Anne] Talk to
people with disabilities,

first and foremost,
and all the way through.

That is the most
important thing.

You know, I think
there are a lot of people

that have good intentions.

And truly, if I think
back to the very first idea

that I had versus what
we ended up building,

it's completely different,

in the best way,
in the very best way.

There are a lot of people
with great intentions,

but ultimately,

sometimes, especially
as founders or creatives,

we think that our
ideas are brilliant ideas,

and they may be brilliant ideas.

But if you're really
wanting to impact people,

if you're really wanting
to create, you know,

products and services that
are really impactful for people,

you need to talk to those people

and understand about
their experiences,

so that you can
make it impactful.

There's no brilliant
idea out there

that a founder can
have on their own

for people with disabilities,

without talking to
people with disabilities,

and as many people as you can,
bring them into the process.

Hire them to be
part of your teams.

Hire them as consultants.

If, you know, if that's
not an option for you,

figure out a way, you know,

I did a lot of things
where I did exchange,

you know, if I
didn't have the funds

to be able to hire all the
people that I wanted to hire,

but I could offer
different things.

For a period of time, I was
doing coaching and mentoring,

and I would offer that in
exchange for feedback,

in exchange for
consulting services.

Even now, there are
some people who have said,

I would love to have
access to your app,

and I'm on fixed income
and I can't actually pay for it.

We are working on some
scholarship opportunities

that we would love
to offer in the future,

to really help
mitigate that risk.

But in the meantime,

right now, we're doing an
exchange of service with people.

We're giving a
membership for free,

and they're supporting
us, truly, in giving feedback.

Some people are creating
social media content for us.

It's just a matter of, you know,

figuring out the way that
you can include people…

throughout that process in
whatever way that you can.

[Narelle] I don't think you
can top that advice, Lee-Anne.

I really don't.

How can people contact you to
find out more about your work,

to find out more about
the Sekond Skin Society,

and even find the app?

[Lee-Anne] Yeah, so you can
find everything about, you know,

the app and kind
of the business,

where it is right
now on our website,

which is sekondskinsociety.com.

Sekond is spelled with a K.

[Narelle] Yep.

[Lee-Anne] But if you're looking
to connect with me or our team,

LinkedIn is a fantastic
place to connect with me.

Instagram, Facebook is a great
place to connect with myself,

or people on our team.

Yeah.

Any of those
platforms are great.

[Narelle] Lee-Anne, thank
you so much for your time.

I really appreciate it.

I love hearing
about your journey,

and what you're doing.

It really excites me to
see people really being,

considering that everyone
as part of the community.

So, thank you.

Now, if you like what we do
on The Digital Access Show,

please like, subscribe,
review, share it.

Love feedback.

Don't care how ugly it is.

I absolutely love it,

and I do learn
from your feedback,

just as I learn from
every show that I…

do.

So, I'm Narelle.

This is The Digital Access Show,

and we'll see you next time.

[music playing]