[Music] [Narelle] Hi and welcome to another episode of The Digital Access Show. I've been going back and looking at all the podcasts we've done. We've done 18. We've met some wonderful people and they've made some really good points. So in today's episode, I've decided to join as many good points as I could together. And do you know what? I only got up to episode six. So this week, we're going back and having a look at what Alan Parker, Paula Burgess, Adam Morris, Brendan Somerville, and Grace Cameron and Shannon Towell had to say about digital accessibility. I hope you enjoy the show. [Sign saying Allan Parker] So Narelle, what you're asking is how do we communicate with somebody who's sighted. And how do we communicate with somebody who is unsighted. Hmm, yeah. And what differences or similarities are there? So I repeat back your question to you. And I put emphasis on the key nouns and verbs. So that that ensures that I've got the similar pictures running in my brain to the pictures that you've got in yours. Which raises the point. Another interesting point, if I can use you and Mark as the example. Mark's been blind since birth. [Narelle] Yes. [Allan] You've, you've become blind. So, your brain has a richer storage of visual memories from your past that you've experienced. Mark has a library of imagined pictures. Cause his brain still makes pictures. He just doesn't have a, a connection between that part of the brain and the eye. Yeah. So it's, it's more important when I speak with Mark, to notice what his nouns and verbs are, then it is with you. [Narelle] OK. [Allan] Yeah. The other, the other, the other thing is that the speed of which we communicate is an indication of which part of the brain is working. So if you would be speaking at that speed, I'd actually speed up and go at that speed. [Narelle] OK. [Allan] Right now, at this point in time, I've been copying your speed. Now the, the speed of which we speak, tells me which part of the brain is actually gathering the information. [Narelle] Oh, wow! [Allan] Yeah. So if I've got, if I'm speaking in my picture brain, I'm going, "I've got. I just wanna talk to you about the fact that I was actually going to go for a ride on the bike with Michael, when we're finished." And now I've got a picture, float, running, of cycling by the river. [Narelle] Yes. [Allan] And the visual brain creates pictures really, really quickly. And is inclined to jump ahead to the part, the future or to the past. [Narelle] Yes. [Allan] Yeah. Whereas you've got a brain that's very vivid in its pictures, in its recall. That just isn't connected to your eye. [Narelle] Yeah, that's it. That's it. Yes. [Allan] So, your visual memory is more strong now than it would have been in the past. [Narelle] And I hadn't thought of that, but when you talked about cycling with Michael along the river, I suddenly had a picture in my mind of you and Michael, on your pushy's, riding along the river. [Allan and Narelle agree] [Allan] Now, the fact that I go, riding, we're going riding along, you know, on our bikes. Riding on our bikes is going to stimulate a strong picture. [Narelle] Yes, it did, straight away. [Allan] Straight away. Now, if I'd have said, we're actually going to go and do some exercise. Which is what's called unspecified language. You'd have no picture at all. You'd have a question. You'd have a question in your mind about, I wonder what form of exercise? [Narelle] Yeah, and that's exactly what I thought. Yeah. [Allan] Yeah, or alternately, you might not be interested in exercise and go, who cares? Now let me tell you what I think. Yeah. So, in the world of, in the world of linguistics, if we can, if we can tune into the language that somebody's using. Particularly if they're not sighted. It's going to make a substantial difference. Now the other, if I'm just gonna want to make a leap, if I may? [Narelle] Yeah. [Allan] If we were to say that if you and Mark, were my business partners. But you weren't blind. You were hearing impaired. [Narelle] Yes. [Allan] Yeah. You'd be, for those people who get to watch this, as an auditory, as a visual video will notice that I use my hands very deliberately. [Narelle] Oh. Okay. [Allan] So, if I were, if I were talking to somebody who was auditory impaired, I've begun, "So what we need to do is get a hold on this idea. And, and we're gonna have to walk through, each step along the way." [Narelle] I, I am presuming you're making movements with your hands are you? [Allan] I, I am. Yes, I am. I'm, I'm actually for the for the person who's sighted but can't hear. My hands are actually matching. Now, I don't. I don't sign. I don't understand. I don't do Auslan. But I'm very deliberate with my gestures. If I go, and we need to, we need to look forward into the future. Now you'll notice, I'm putting my hands into the future to visually demonstrate to them we're going to the future. My hands are making a picture of the future. But you'll notice that my head is still turning facing you, so that you can still lip read me. [Narelle] Oh my gosh. It's simple things. [Allan] And because, because I'm aware that you can't hear. You'll notice how much clearer my diction is and how much more movement there is in my mouth. So that it makes it easier for them to lip read. [Narelle] Allan, these are really simple techniques. [Sign says Paula Burgess. Beyond The Maze] Especially with ADHD or, I guess, any of the spectrum. There are different ways to communicate because the, the processing, you know, the way the brain processes information is different. And me having trained as an ADHD coach, I understand that. So being able to communicate that with my team, and then, you know, my team upon hearing will go, I don't really understand what that client wants. And I'll go, let's work it back. Let's, let's talk about what their outcome needs to be, and then work it back from there. So, you know, that's, that's, I guess, what needs to change. I think a lot of people need to sort of understand that. And know that, you know, neurodivergent are not. Everybody's brains process different. So, I think it's just taking that step back and understanding that people think differently. People do things differently. And if they're not doing or not understanding the way you're putting something across for you to take a step back yourself. And go, how do I rephrase that? Or, if you do, you know, if it is in the neurodivergent space, how do you restructure that? So, you can make it more understandable. in what you're trying to get across. [Sign reading Adam Morris] [Narelle] So what you are saying is vision impaired people can be independent. Just with a few strategies and techniques. [Adam ] That's right. And the only ones that are holding them back are those people that are not employing the strategies and techniques. [Adam] That's right. That's exactly. That's exactly it because, you know, a lot of vision impaired people, you know, can help people, think outside the box and go that extra step to getting things working. It's just a matter of having people willing to take that extra little bit of time. [Sign says Shannon Towell, Shannon Towell Design] [Narelle] Is there a time when you would ever say don't put accessibility into a website? [Shannon] No. Like, there may be a point where, like, it's a give or take. And then, like, okay, here is like some non-negotiables and here are things we can work. But I'm, no. I like to make my websites as accessible as they can be. And so, even going as far as, like, delving into AAA where it makes sense. Yeah. Like, we've talked about this before. And you're, like, you've said this statistic to me, like, one in six Australians identify as disabled. And so, if you're not including accessibility, then you're potentially leaving out, like, a market that could be purchasing from you. Like, either a product or a service. And so, I just don't know why anyone would purposely not want to include it. [Narelle] What tips and tricks could you, just say off the top of your head, that are some simple tips that would just start them on the journey, David. You know, what, what would a person that looks at their website and thinks yeah, I can, you know, they're doing it themselves. What can you advise them to do to start on that journey? [David] Well, if they're doing it themselves, I would definitely be suggesting WordPress. Because that will solve quite a lot of the issues out of the box like I mentioned before. Choosing an appropriate theme such as the Astra theme. That's one, we're currently using. That's very accessible out of the box. And also making sure that they use appropriate plugins that aren't going to affect the accessibility in any way, in a negative way. [Narelle] Yeah. [David] When building pages, they need to consider things like the contrast of colours. So they would need to check that online to make sure the contrast are correct based on the the guidelines. Think about fonts and navigation in terms of making sure that navigation is clear as to where it leads you to. And also thinking about images and making sure there's alt text available for all of the images and that it's a clear description of what what the image is actually about. [Narelle] Is there any tips that you would suggest to employers to start doing before they even talk to you if they really want to do it? What, what could they do just to make their business a much more attractive business to a person with disability? What, what would they do? [Brendan] Sure, they could start doing things like doing an audit of their workplace. And engaging with somebody like yourself to look at their website and their digital communication strings. They could also then start looking at how they communicate about disability in the workplace and be more proactive in promoting the way that they interact with customers through their marketing. So, use images of your customers with disabilities, you know, obviously with, with consent, interacting with your business and promoting the fact that, you know, you do, you know, service customers with disabilities in your business. Because I'm sure most businesses do, if not all. Because there are people out there who, unlike myself, have invisible disabilities. And you don't identify as having a disability even though, according to, you know, the definitions of disability, they probably do. Yeah. So, that, that would be a great starting point. And to also then start thinking about, you know, your recruitment practices, so using, again, inclusive language. And then making sure you have welcoming statements on advertisements that says things like, you know, we welcome applications from candidates with disabilities, things like that. [Narelle] That's a really simple thing to do. I would never have thought of that one. But such a simle thing. [Narelle] Grace. What would you say to any person with disability, about finding work or starting a business. What's the one tip or idea that you would say to help them break out of that isolation? [Grace] There's two tips actually. And they're not just for people with disability. I think these tips are for anyone. The first one is to think of continuous improvement rather than perfectionism. So if you're looking for something that's perfect it's really hard to start. But if you can just start on something small and know that you'll improve it over time, it's much easier to get started. And the other one that I used in my business, my, my business coach actually said it to me early on. And it's been brilliant. When you have a piece of advice, instead of thinking I can't do that because of this, I can't do that because that requires me to go out of the house and go see people face-to-face. I think I like, I like the concept. So how can I make that work for me? And take out parts that, parts of that concept? And so, an example is accountant meetings. Often people suggest to bookkeepers go knock on the doors of all of the accountants in your neighbourhood and introduce yourself and set up meetings with them. That doesn't work for me. But I can do it digitally. So yeah. [Music]