[Music] [Narelle] Hello and welcome to episode 15 of The Digital Access Show. My name is Narelle and yes. I'm your host. And just for those that aren't aware I actually have a severe vision impairment so I see shapes. And what I wanted to do is look at an area this week that for me is very, very important. Particularly with what's happening in Australia right now with the the National Disability Royal Commission, the NDIS review, the, all of the different reviews that have happened, happening federally and state, I want to look at employment for those with disability. So I have got on today, Rebbecca Jurkewicz from Chapter One Disability Employment Service. Hi Rebbecca thanks for coming along. [Rebbecca] Hi Narelle, thank you so much for having me. [Narelle] I'm thrilled to have you here because I think with what's going on federally and state wise I think it's a good time to discuss the employment of those with disability. Rebbecca what's your background and what's got you into this area. [Rebbecca] Thanks Narelle. Look I've worked in this sector for around 20 years nearly. I've been lucky enough that this has been not just something I'm passionate about. Something I actually get to forge a career in and be quite proud of. I've worked across a lot of different disability employment service providers in that time. And obviously more familiar. Nowadays I've had a very personal experience as a caregiver for a family member who also had to utilize the NDIS. So there's obviously some pros and cons there as well that I've experienced firsthand as a, I guess, an executive or guardian for that person. Our, my main career, I work with people with disability, is about trying to help them re either re-enter the workforce or get their first job or career pathway, I guess. So a lot of time has been invested in that and I think I've seen a lot of things over the years that have really been really positive. And then there's obviously some of those things that we can call out and identify as, you know, the ongoing challenges. And how do we, you know,I guess band together to overcome some of those. So that's kind of, you know, keeps me going every day, is that is, you know, that I enjoy the triumphs. But the challenges that we face every day is what really gets me up and makes me start every day with a lot of caffeine and just that intention to make a difference. [Narelle] So with that, when we think of disability employment, I know a lot of people would think of like Help Industries, the Endeavour Group. What are you really focusing on with disability employment? Are you looking at that sector? Or, what are you actually looking at? [Rebbecca] So we, we look at getting people with disability employed into the open market. So that's our key focus. Not the supported employment opportunities. I have a firm belief that we shouldn't be retiring anybody for life. I think that was a term that a colleague of mine, that you had on the show, mentioned once before, that after his injury and recovery, he was told by the system around us, which is, you know, he was given a DSP. And he was basically told, don't worry, so you don't have to work. Just put that to the side and go and enjoy your life. And it was such a, for him, and even my family member who went through her own journey with her brain trauma injury. You know, it's such a numbing and fearful thing that they face at that point. Because there are people, most of us, get a lot from our careers. I know that, you know, it's part of who I am, the job that I do. And I like to know that I'm contributing to my family, financially, to my community. And to have that taken away without that being something you get to, a choice in. I know that my colleague, champ, championed that. And he now works at Chapter One as well. And I just think that nobody should be retired for life. And I don't believe that we should ever be saying to someone, how much or how little they can contribute. It should be about the person. It, that should be a person-centered service. And it should be about that individual guiding what that service looks like for them. So, I'm really proud to work with an organization when we get really empowered that in the individual. And we then work directly with Disability Employment Services providers and NDIS providers to support their clients in that journey. Our core focus is really around educating employers as well, because you can't help people with disability without getting employers to be allies in that process. And actually be really positive and proactive in wanting to create a more inclusive workplace. [Narelle] With employers, how do you find the employers? I mean, if you take someone like myself, yes, I've got a severe vision impairment. I do have a lot of skill. And I know for me, they considered that I couldn't work once nearly all my sight had gone. And the employer I was working with at the time really struggled to change the system so that I could continue working. How do you deal with that, with employers? [Rebbecca] Yeah, it's a really good question. And it's probably one of the hardest things we do. And I think the first thing we have to do is realize that we're a people-to-people business. In the sense that no two employers will have the same response when we go out there to promote our service and promote inclusivity. Some employers will have a very honest fear of risk, of the person's safety or perhaps other workers' safety on safety in the workplace. Some employers just lack understanding about what that means. And I think many employers, I think, and even people that we talk to, and you talk, you say the word disability, many of them think about, you know, the most serious physical disabilities. You know, they'll immediatley have a picture of someone who is wheelchair, you know, living life in a wheelchair or someone who is on crutches or someone who, you know, very significant disabilities. Very few employers really think, well, 50% of the people that are engaging these services to come back to work actually have a mental health disability or condition. You know, and so they are all immediately sort of not aware of a very large talent pool of people that can definitely contribute to their workplace because there's that immediate image. We, how we go about our job, is relationship building. A lot of the time it starts with a phone call or a networking event, which I think is how we met. It's just, it's just pushes our people to be champions for that change all the time and to really come out on the forefront and talk about with pride, that we work with people with disability. And we don't shy away from that conversation. Sometimes people go a bit quiet. You hear crickets in the background, but it's really important to us that we advocate. All too often we leave it to the people with disability to advocate for themselves. And I think that'd be a very lonely place. So, how we engage employers is we're very much on the front foot. We go out there and actively start conversations about that. And we then try to learn what their fears or mindsets are. And how we can support change. So it's usually a slow process. But it's a worthwhile process because when we get those employers and we get those placements, it's a really great feeling for all, everyone involved. [Narelle] What kind of changes do you think employers have to make? Other than the mindset, because I think the mindset would probably be the biggest challenge initially, of the employer and those other staff in the company. What other changes, you know, have to be made to make a company be, you know, in the position to employ someone with disability? [Rebbecca]It's a really good question. And it's something, this month actually, I've been working with a lot of larger sized employers who have agreed to participate in national consultation we've been doing to understand what their experience of disability employment services has been and how we might be able to improve that service to meet their needs. As part of that, some interesting feedback has come out of it. And some, things that's really made me take pause and think about the systems and processes that I've worked in, as well as an employee of larger organisations in my career. One great piece of feedback that came back to me from a person that works in equity and inclusion for a company, was that they have a very, as a large business, employing more than 6,000 employees. They go through a very, they use a system to do all of their recruitment. So once resume comes in through a Seek or Indeed, it sits in a system. That system obviously does it's process. And then you go through to the time acquisition manager who short lists you. Now if someone applied, that had to have any reasonable adjustments so that they could be treated as equitably as anyone else came through that process, that reasonable adjustment has to then go through an approvals process. So it has to get sent off to a director or a manager. And if that person's not available and readily looking at that approval process and then the request. That could sit there for a long time. So if you take that back down to a grassroots level of an operations manager and a business who just needed someone to come in because the workload is piling up. That, that wait, that person is sitting in that waiting line, waiting for an approval, immediately puts them well behind other candidates that are going straight through the short-listing process. So it was something where that company acknowledged that's a major issue. But the ability to change that is going to take a lot of red tape cutting and a lot of time. And for you and I, it's probably something where we go, well it shouldn't take that time. Let's just make that adjustment. These are the sort of things that create those impediments. Most employers are admitting that the fact that they do the bulk of their employment or recruitment on web pages like in D&C and they need a printed, you know, a proper resume that's in a doc, word document, sorts of things. These are obviously limiting factors for many people living with disability. We know that if you are unemployed or have been long term umemployed and you have a disability, you are far less likely to have access to, you know, internet, home, or laptop. Most people are mobile only users. So a lot of this is a great impediment to helping them brack down those barriers. [Narelle] So what can employers do to start to break down those barriers? From your position. [Rebbecca] Yeah. I'd love to say, Look give me a call and we'll do some of the recruitment and short listing for you. But outside of that, I think it's more about trying to review that process. I think it's time to really look at your own workforce as well and how, what is your culture at work? Are your employees actively or openly identifying as people with disability? Because I think that speaks to a larger issue if they aren't? You know, we want to create inclusive workplaces. And I think, I think the easiest way to do that is to learn from your own employees experience. So if you do have people that have been, you know, open enough to talk about their journey and how they've come to work in your organization, it might be a chance to say, well, how did you find that recruitment process? What would you have changed? I think we need to be more peer led in this space. I think all toooften people like me, who, I mean, luckily for me, haven't led quite an ableist life. I think it's really easy for me to sit here and tell everyone what to do. But I do think that the starting point is organizations, including disability employment services agencies, to really start to talk to people with disability about what their experience is and how can that environment or that technology be different in giving them greater access and make it fairer. [Narelle] What about those companies where you've got an employee that has an accident? Whatever. And they've got to go back to work. Are you involved in that process as well? whe'e working with the employee and the employer to marry them together, so the work, they can still continue to work? [Rebbecca] Yes Narelle. This is actually one of the things I'm extremely passionate about. Because for a very long time, like I've said, I've worked in and around the Disability Employment Service for nearly 20 years this year. We've had a program that's coming up funded for employers and people, you know, workers who are experiencing disability injury, illness to access. It's called, it used to be called Job in Jeopardy. And I think that the name probably put people off because no one wants to think, oh, my employee's job is in Jeopardy. That's pretty negative speak. It was changed to Work Assist. Yeah, there's some providers that do this really well. And largely because they have a cohort of people who are, you know, they've had long-term careers. Particularly, the people with multiple sclerosis and those sort of things. They've had long-term careers and they've then had this diagnosis, had to change the way that they approach their day-to-day lives in certain ways and needed this assistance. So you, if you are someone who has been working, or you are working and you have suddenly had an experience of disability injury illness, that has then sort of set you on a path where you might need to re-adjust either your workload, the tasks you can do, the equipment you can use. There is a government funded program there to support you. And it does connect you directly to access that you can get immediately. That can help to build disability confidence with your supervisor. So they know how to better support you and they can receive coaching and mentoring. And you yourself can receive support. And that can even include getting some referrals for allied health services. Wage subsidies are available as well. And that's a really important thing for employers who might have to think about readjusting how work is being done in their workplace. That can take time. You could be trained to do different roles. So you might have been a storeman and now we're going to move you into purchasing. So you can be sitting at a desk and you can actually, you know, manage an inventory and those sorts of things. That might require some computer training and that sort stuff. So, that program has been around and, and sadly it's really underutilised. It's not something that gets utilized a great deal. In fact, I think most large desk providers around the country would be lucky to have more than 5% of their case load as representative of those type of participants or registrations. So definitely something I'm really passionate about because I think we need to build the pathways for people to not have to leave work before they're ready to. Again, it's that whole retired for life. No one should have to be retired from the job that they love. So you know, and for organisations, think about the knowledge that they're going to lose. You've just had someone who's done that job for 10 years and you've just had to say, look sorry, we can't keep you because we don't really know what to do. And then you lose all that knowledge that they have about that role, that industry. And it's a great loss for everybody. So I think you mentioned it to me in the past. But even things like teaching them how to be trainers. You know, someone had been on the tools, doing a certain job, like, got the skills. Let's find a way to get them upskilled so they can teach others to do that job and keep that knowledge within that organisation and keep that time going. [Narelle] Yeah. And that's it. One of the other things that I really want to talk about today is, let's look at it from the participant or the employee's point of view. What barriers or challenges do you see for employees that are trying to get back into work or are working, then they've got a disability? [Rebbecca] Yeah, it's, it's really difficult because there's a big part, I mean, a big part of my role is working people that are long term unemployed. So often I hear a lot of the rhetoric of, oh, these are people that don't want jobs. They don't want to work or, you know, the kind of thing you hear back and that's the one of the first barriers you have to overcome. And then I get to work with people that are working and we're helping them to you know, raise more awareness or create a more inclusive workplace. And the thing that we hear there though is that, you know, I'm not enabled to do the job I want to do. Like it's, it's, I'm going to work, but it's hard work trying to do the same work that someone else does. And it's, it's not that they're complaining. I think it, and it really, it gives me a lot of, I mean, it's sometimes an awakening for me. Things that I don't think about. There was a great speaker that I heard just yesterday at a conference who talked about how she works in a government organisation and that is there all about inclusivity and promoting inclusiveness. And yet in order to do some parts of her job, she has to access documents and files that are unreadable to her. She has low revision after having a car accident and it almost makes her ability to perform in her role impossible. And it's that moment where that then filters up the line. So her sense of, I can't do my job, there's a frustration there, it takes longer to do my job. That is then felt, she feels, by her peers, her manager, the people that are all having to deliver on this. And a simple thing would be, you know, ensuring that these documents and the way that they're stored is, is more easily accessible to all. Yeah, yeah. [Narelle] And that's not just for the person with vision impairment, that's for the person with dyslexia. Or the person that has ASD or there's just so many reasons. I mean, I would add one more. Make sure all your systems can be used just with the keyboard. And that includes people with arthritis and RSI and carpel tunnel. And all these different things where you may not be able to use the mouse and vice versa. [Rebbecca] Yeah, yeah, I would definitely agree with a lot of that. And I mean, even to the point where some, I mean, I'm from an industry where we've really only just gone paperless recently. Even to the fact that some people, if they had a physical disability or their disability was one that meant they didn't have car amd license. If they were working from home but they needed something. Sometimes it wasn't even scanned. It wasn't a file you could access electronically. You'd have to get to the site where that file was stored in a filing cabinet to do your job. So the fact that, you know, yeah, it's all these little things that can have a major impact. Yeah. [Narelle] It is. And it's down to the physical as well. Because obviously most government departments now, there is that physical accessibility component that is very much considered. However, it could be as simple as, I remember when we moved into a new building in a previous job. And if you went to one kitchen, the hot water and cold water taps are in one, in one position. The hot water at the back, the cold at the front. But if you went to the other sink in the kitchen, it was the complete opposite. [Rebbecca] Yes. [Narelle] You know, and it's just these little things that do make the difference. And I think it's also people with disabilities, themselves, have to say, hey, I can do the job. [Rebbecca] Yes. I think, and that's something that starts, I think it starts when these, when people are at school, you know, and I think it can start with education around even to their parents. I think, sometimes parents start to feel quite helpless. And they start to, I don't know, what I see. So I can only speak from what I've seen and experienced. What I see is that some parents probably get to the stage of where their son or daughter is 15 and live with disability. And they think, well, we can't hope for too much. And then that kind of filters down. I think the whole idea is that they don't want to get their hopes up. Or they don't want to push or expect more, especially when the system can be so complex sometimes. Lots of support out there, but how do I access it is usually the problem? And I think that there's that frustration. So I think you end up with young people coming through there senior years going, well, I don't know that I can do that. You know, and that's the rhetoric they start to hear. Why don't we aim for this? And even I'm sad to say that even in employment services, sometimes our goal is to get participants a job. Not necessarily the right job or their career choice. Sometimes it's more about getting them a job. And sometimes that can be good, Because sometimes getting that job is the stepping stone that propels them further. But I'd even like to see that we start to build more belief in the fact that we can't be their limit. And we need to start to encourage them to think about what's possible and how, let them dream. And yes, you know, sure, I've heard a saying, statement. Hope can be the killer of joy. And sure, you know, we might get our hopes up and we might get knocked back, but I think it's better to try. [Narelle] Yeah, I agree. Rebbecca, I always ask for three takeaways at the end. Because I think what you've said today is just spot on and I've got admit, we've had a lot of discussion about this. Because I'm very passionate about this as well. I think there's no reason that a person can't do the job that they want to do with, and I will add, with some changes at times. Obviously, I can't go and drive a car anymore. So I can't drive racing cars. However, I can find a job that I'm satisfied and I get that internal satisfaction where I'm contributing to my family, my life, the community, everything. And it's people with disability having to accept what they can't do with grace and find what they really gives them joy. And there's always something. But what takeaway can you give employers and the potential employee about this area of life? [Rebbecca] Oh, so many and I have to narrow it down. I think the biggest thing for me and I probably speak more first to providers are, like, that to one. I think the first thing we've actually got to do is realize that we work in a system that provides a service to people. A government draft a system that provides services to the community, that is more health based rather than social or person based. And I think we are the, we are the difference. We need to bring that person centric focus and we need to make it more of a social support as opposed to, you know, what someone can and can't do. Because the doctor said so. I think to employers out there, I do think that if you're not tapping into this talent pool. And I know I can see it for myself. At Chapter One, we only, we're only a small team and more than 50% of our team are people with disability. And we see how that has translated to greater innovation, greater morale. We are better at connecting with people in our community as well. And I think we get more community followers because of it. So I think if you're an employer out there and you haven't really managed to make your embeds yet or look at your inclusivity, I think you're missing some amazing opportunities with innovation, retention of staff, loyalty, as well as bringing in more people in the community that will participate with your business because of it. And I think the other big part as a takeaway for me is wherever we can, I think we need to be, and this is all organizations, small, big, medium, large government, private sector. I think we need to find the opportunities to listen to people with disability. We've been, we've slowly, I think slowly is the emphasis. We've slowly been doing with people from different backgrounds and cultures and first nations people and LGBTQIA plus people. I think we need to make sure that we don't underestimate that people with disability of all different disability types can come to the table and offer support and great advice as to how we can be more inclusive. And it's got to be more peer led. We've got to hear from them. [Narelle] Rebbecca, thank you. Thanks for your words of wisdom. I've really enjoyed our chat today. How can people contact you, Rebbecca? [Rebbecca] Oh, great question, Narelle. So I'm at Chapter One. We are a Brisbane based office, but we are nationally servicing. And you can always reach out to me any time. It's just Rebbecca, with two B's and two C's because I had to buy an extra consonant. So Rebbecca @chapteroneemployment.com.au. Otherwise, Narelle, feel free to share my number if anyone is interested in having a chat. Yeah. [Narelle] Thank you. Thanks for your time today, Rebbecca. And yeah, that's the end of today's episode. Look, definitely contact Rebbecca if you know of any employers that would consider taking on a person with disability. Because we are bloody good. Trust me. [All are laughing] [Narelle] And yeah, we have a lot of fun and, you know, we just, we want to work. Also, please like, share, subscribe, review. Definitely. If you like what we're doing, if you want to find out more about digital accessibility, please contact me. I'm NarelleGatti@dasat.com.au. We'd love to have a chat with you. And we'll see you next time. Bye bye. [Music]