[Music] [Narelle] Hello and welcome to another access, episode, access, of The Digital Access Show. Everyone, I'd like to introduce you to the guest this week and her name is Lucy Serret. Lucy works at BindiMaps. And I'm going to let Lucy explain BindiMaps to you. I have used BindiMaps. It is a newer app out on the market, A wayfinding app that is great for inside building. Lucy, thank you for being here. [Lucy] Thanks so much Narelle, really looking forward to chatting with you on the Digital Access Show. So yes, my name is Lucy Seret and I'm a head of user experience design at BindiMaps. So what is BindiMaps? We are an award-winning accessible navigation technology company. We design and build software to help all sorts of people explore and get around complex indoor spaces like hospitals, airports, shopping centres, office buildings and more. [Narelle] Do you do outside as well. I'm thinking like universities. I know I would hate to try and navigate around a university now because I would get lost. [Lucy] Oh, absolutely. Yeah, we do also do outdoor locations. We'll often set up a bit of a precinct. So for example, with a university campus, we'll have multiple buildings, maybe some outdoor sort of courtyards or outdoor classroom areas. And that will all be included as a part of a BindiMaps supported area. And we've also done events in the past as well, like the Australian open this year. We've done AbilityFest and other sort of big large sporting events and music festivals. [Narelle] Lucy, why was BindiMaps started? What was the impetus? [Lucy] It's a fantastic story, which is really led by our CEO, Anna Wright. She was working as a professor at a university and was diagnosed with a eye condition, which led her to be told she was going to be blind in the next six months to a year. And one of the first things she started to think about was really how is she going to do her job at the university? How she's going to find her way to the lecture theaters or find the things in the office. And so she started looking around if there was any sort of products out there that would help her, almost like a Google Maps for indoors, and didn't find anything. And so she decided to build something herself. And so that's where the sort of startup story started about six years ago, BindiMaps began. And we've evolved quite a lot since then. We have a text and audio mode, which is our legacy app in our product. But then, since then we've really expanded the product to be an inclusive navigation app for all with a big focus on accessibility. We support people who use screen readers, as well as wheelchair routes. We also map quiet spaces. We map uni-sex bathrooms. It's really about enabling everyone to navigate places independently. [Narelle] And that's what it's going to ask because if it's a mobile phone app, obviously I know it because I have used BindiMaps before. And it allows us, like using Google Maps, but for within building. And you're saying it's for everyone to use. It's not just for vision impaired people. It's for anyone that needs to get anywhere. [Lucy] Yes, that's absolutely right. [Narelle] What, In going up to these places for university, the shop, and I will say I believe you are normal. As normal as you can be Lucy. You're not, I mean, well everyone is normal. I don't think I'm any different to you. I've just got different capabilities. But as a so-called normal person, I love that. Sorry, Lucy. As a so-called normal person, what do you notice with people when they're out trying to navigate that you would say, oh my gosh, I've never thought of that before? [Lucy] Hmm, there's a lot. There's a lot. [Narelle] Like what? [Lucy] Well, [Narelle] Let's take a shopping centre. Let's do one that everyone goes to. [Lucy] Well, one example that really struck me when I first joined BindiMaps was we have, when someone first on boards into the app, we asked the user a number of preferences. So the first thing we ask is, do you want text and audio mode, which is optimized for voice over, and talk back, or would you like map mode? And map mode is a more visual interface where it shows and displays the user's position inside the floor plan in the building. Whereas text and audio, it really lists information, like what's around you and navigation directions in a list format. So it's a lot more easy for a screen reader user to use that interface. And then it obviously speaks out loud these real-time directions when you're navigating indoors too. Now, the second setting that we actually ask users is, what are your direction preferences? Do you want left and right, or do you want clock face? This one really struck me because I've never really come across an app that's asked for directions preferences. And often when I'm conducting usability testing of those screens, there's a camp of people who are always a little bit surprised about getting a screen like that and being asked, wow, I never really thought about whether there were other options other than left and right and straight and behind. But what I've recognized is that the people who do prefer clock face are really delighted about being asked that upfront. Either they were, you know, learnt directions via clock face when they're a child. Or perhaps they find the clock a much easier mechanism to understand directions. But this particular customization, it just helps speak in the language of the user. And I think that can really help with usability and accessibility when trying to navigate all sorts of places, whether it's a shopping centre, an office building. Being spoken to in the language that you prefer, is one of the essential building blocks of accessibility and usability. [Narelle] Yeah. I think, I know for me, one of my stresses when I'm trying to get around somewhere, I use Google Maps all the time. And obviously where I live, BindiMaps is not here yet. It will happen, I know that it will come. However, I get really, even using Google Maps, the amount of information that's given to me, it can be overwhelming. And the only way I can describe it, so you walk into K-Mart. Excuse me. You walk into K-Mart. And everything is right in front of you. You've got this huge wall and every product that K-Mart sells is in front of you. And for me, listening to that, that is really confusing. How do you to ensure accessibility and bring down that level of confusion and frustration? How do you manage that using an app? [Lucy] Yeah, it's a great question. And we've done a quite a bit of research and testing on this. Because if you think about a building, like obviously your referring to K-Mart, which has extensive lists of products inside it, then if we think about a building where maybe K-Mart is merely one store in this massive building and we've got a range of different things from shops that have different levels of categories, as well as bathrooms that also have different categories, whether it's not accessible. We have things like seating areas and defibrillators and fire extinguishers, like we really do go above and beyond in terms of mapping these essential things that people would be looking for in a building. And one thing that we have in the interface is categories. So when you first select a location that's been bindimapped, you will have a whole list of categories. And for some locations, this list can be quite extensive and it's basically a way to chunk down these different spaces in a meaningful way. Now, we have another feature called feature categories, which is really where we take some of those really popular categories that people are often looking for in a space. Think of your entrances and exits, yeah, bath, our reception areas. So these categories are special categories and they actually go up to the top of the list. So they're much easier to find, they're easier to select if people are just wanting to find a bathroom quick. Otherwise, you have all the categories underneath that you can explore and browse and familiarize yourself with in a building. [Narelle] That makes sense. So from a digital accessibility point of view, what is the problem that BindiMaps is solving for people? [Lucy] We are fundamentally giving people a choice to navigate independently. So our mission is really to make spaces 100% accessible. But we're trying to give people a choice, I guess, with our app if you would like to navigate independently, we will provide you the most accessible and efficient route to get to where you want to go in the way that you want to be communicated. And when we think of accessibility, we're really thinking about, you know, whatever those assistive technologies that you might be using, to use your device, whether it's voiceover and talk back. Whether it's dynamic type, you know, enlarged fonts. Whether it's inverted colors. We do a lot of extensive testing on our app to ensure that it will be responsive to how people use their mobile phones. But yeah, really, we're trying to get people to move independently and use this app as a navigation tool. It's not a mobility tool. That's something we often have to tell people. We're not trying to replace guide dogs and canes. We are a navigation device that can help you get from A to B. [Narelle] How, I know you're actually in Budapest Airport. I actually cracked up laughing when I heard that one. I thought, you're in Budapest, but you're not in Australia, in Australian airports. I know you're working on it. For people, what are three takeaways that you would say to people in navigating, oh I 'spose, question before that, does BindiMaps, will it work with all the other maps, like a Google map, an Apple, and the other tools that we have to use to navigate? [Lucy] Yeah, absolutely. So, BindiMaps is fundamentally positioned as an app that you can use when you cross that threshold. So, from testing, we recognize that people use a whole range of navigation apps. In fact, we run a recent survey that discovered that people with a vision impairment who use smartphones, 95% of them use a navigation app on their device. And in fact, not just one, but on average, three navigation apps, So, and this ranges from Google Maps, Apple maps, camera-based navigation apps, as as well as some more specific to indoor mapping. Some are more specific to outdoor navigation. Some are more specific to navigating public transport. So, people are already using quite a number of different navigation apps. I guess where BindiMaps sits is when you enter the doors of that big complex university or office building or hospital, and you need to find your way, that's what BindiMaps will do, is help you find that particular thing that you're looking for and provide the most easy and useful directions to get there. [Narelle] So, in summary, BindiMaps, if you're in a shopping centre, well, you can say, oh, we want to go to Kmart or I want to go to whatever. Once you're in Kmart, it can't help you, unless Kmart has come in, come to the drawing board and got it within Kmart, which would be awesome. Imagine the wages they could save there. People look, you know, losing things or not being able to find things. BindiMaps, for many people, will replace that kiosk in the centre, as long as the centre keeps it updated. BindiMaps is a way for people, because obviously, like people like me, that can't read signs, or I'm very dependent on a particular colour, knowing that I don't even know what colour Kmart is now. Yeah, that's bad. But McDonald is red and yellow. But, you know, it, it, it, if it replaces being able to read signs, it, it it takes the place of being able to read signs. [Lucy] Absolutely. [Narelle] So, it really well for me and I have used it and I love it. I think what I get slack with is I've used it when my support work is there and I think, oh, I'll just, my support workers here. What am I doing this for? But I know I can use BindiMaps to get around. What do you love about doing the job you're doing then, Lucy? With everything that you've talked about with BindiMaps? Why do you go to work every day? [Lucy] Well, I wish I could code, but I'm, unfortunately, that's definitely something on my bucket list before I go on this earth. I guess my role at BindiMaps is really to lead the user experience design. So that includes both, you know, research and testing of real users and getting out in real locations and really understanding how people behave with the app and how the app behaves. As well as designing those interfaces to be really usable and useful and efficient. [Narelle] What do you love about your job? [Lucy] Oh, I love my job so much. It really is, it's my dream job and I think one of the main reasons why I really like it is that it feels like this really interesting intersection between digital accessibility, trying to compensate for physical accessibility. So because we're mapping physical locations and there is this reliance of being physically in a place, it's this really interesting problem space where there's a lot of very interesting challenging wicked problems about wayfinding. Like even if we're about wayfinding, it's not just getting from A to B. It's knowing where you are, where you want to go, how to get there, knowing you've arrived, and then being able to find your way back. And so that's like five principles we're talking and, you know, a lot of what people think of wayfinding is signs and color coding, but that really really caters to a certain part of wayfinding. And it only really caters to certain people. It's very visual. And that's why we have a huge emphasis on, you know, supporting the blind and low vision community in navigating because they are greatly impacted by poor wayfinding. And so by focusing on a navigation product that's accessible, we're really bridging those barriers, those gaps to accessibility when navigating indoors. So Lucy, normally I ask for three takeaways. I'm going to get a bit mean. What are three lessons you've learnt during this? And then add the takeaway. I know. I owe you a cuppa for this. [Lucy] I guess three takeaways would be, one, don't make assumptions about what people think or do. I mean, I love usability testing mostly for that, is that, you know, even though we'd love to, you know, pretend we don't make assumptions. When you put a product in front of someone and you observe how they behave and and how they think about particular screens or flows, you'll be blown away because this person isn't you and they will do things differently. They will think differently. And I think assumptions are something that comes quite naturally to humans. My, I guess my my thing is to really write as many of your assumptions down as possible and they become less dangerous. If they're in your head and they're floating around all the time, that's when they become a little bit risky. So I would often do a bit of an assumption dump and really, you know, put them all on paper and then test them and put them into questions and actually try to get evidence and truth behind them. [Narelle] So one is don't make assumptions? Yeah. Don't make assumptions. But if you do, write them down. The second take away is to involve users as early as in the process as possible. Even if it's a really scrappy prototype. Even if it's merely a couple of questions that you've got floating around, you know, we're working on some things at the moment around escalators. We're doing a lot of work around how to improve the escalator experience and we've already got some, you know, interesting things around escalators and I'm going to be putting those into our discussion guides to sort of get as early feedback from real users as possible in that process before we build too far. So really involve your users as early as possible would be the second takeaway. The third takeaway, would be to really test your product with different assistive settings. So again, reflecting on accessibility and how to make inclusive products. I've found from my experience that developers and designers don't tend to dabble too much in assistive technologies or settings as much as they should. Because they do greatly impact on the interface, especially people haven't considered those assistive settings from the start. So, you know, we probably most of us have a smartphone. And in our smartphones we have a powerful list of and menu of different accessibility settings that you can use right now for free and you can just learn about how other apps have, you know, catered to those settings. Whether that's just putting voice over on and navigating around an app and seeing how they've approached that or inverting the colours or, you know, increasing the fonts and seeing how interfaces either deal with those settings or break. And I find I learn a lot from sort of doing that with different apps and get inspiration about how we can cater for that in our own app as well. [Narelle] So what are the three lessons you've learnt? Cause I love your takeaways. Now, I'm going to be [Lucy] Three lessons. Okay, I've got to have a little think about this one. [Narelle] Nothing like springing it on you at the last minute. But you know. [Lucy] Three lessons would have to be I think especially getting into accessibility, like, I've been in, properly really thinking about and executing in digital accessibility for about five years now. And when I first started, I was super anxious about getting it right. And getting it perfect because of this fear that my ignorance could lead to creating barriers for people. You know, discriminating people. And I think that made me really quite overwhelmed and quite anxious about the space and really wanting to do a good job and fearful about what my mistakes could lead to. And then it wasn't until I heard that fantastic phrase of progress over perfection. And it just it sort of soothed that stress and it made me realize that I've been really sort of framing it wrong. I should have been sort of thinking about get it better. Get it, you know, a little bit better, is better than not a little bit better if that makes sense. A little bit of progress, is better than nothing. In fact, someone told me recently about a little bit of a few percentages of progress is better than 0% of perfection. And so yeah, I think that's a really fantastic lesson that I continually come back to and have to remind myself. [Narelle] Thanks, Lucy. Lucy, how people contact you if they want to find more about BindiMaps or have a chat to you about your work. What's the best way to contact you? [Lucy] The best way to contact me was probably to connect with me on LinkedIn under the Lucy Seret. You'll be able to find me. Otherwise, feel free to send me an email on lucy@bindimaps.com. [Narelle] Thanks. Look, Lucy, thanks for that. I'm, obviously you and I chat every chance we can get. And I find it interesting the way you guys with with BindiMaps are working on building and improving every step of the way to ensure that people need to remember BindiMaps is not just for vision impaired people. It's for anyone. 'Cause, you know, you can put it on your phone, you can walk into the shopping center or the uni and say, I need to go to Kmart. And it takes you straight there without having to stop and think, you know, and for so many people today in this busy world, it is a great way that digital accessibility can enhance everyone's life. ]Lucy] Absolutely. [Narelle] Yeah, so thanks, Lucy. And that's another episode of the Digital Access Show. Please like, subscribe, share and let everyone know what we're doing. And don't forget, we do put a blog out in the same theme when the show is released in that same week. So, Lucy, yeah, the blog's going to be about what, wayfinding maps, wayfinding apps. And obviously, looking at things like Google maps as well because they are all such great tools that instead of good old Gregory's paper-based map, we now have it all digitally. So, thanks, Lucy, and we'll see you all next time. Bye-bye. [Lucy] Thank you. [Music]